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A city for a city? Why we must ditch Trident

NuclearBy Morys Ireland

Before you read the rest of this post, consider this: Are there any circumstances whatsoever in which you would be prepared to have the deaths of hundreds of thousands people on your conscience?

No one can deny that right now the public finances are in a bad way: in order to pay back the debt incurred by the state over recent months taxes will have to be raised and public spending cut. So what better way to alleviate some of the pressure on the public purse than by ditching the plans to update the totally unnecessary Trident nuclear missile system?

The true cost of replacing the system, including maintenance costs of the new system spread over its 30 year life-span, is estimated at an eye-watering £76 billion. The fact that the cost is spread over 30 years is irrelevant as it’s likely we will still be paying for the recent government spending for at least half of that time.

The arguments in favour of updating Trident are largely based upon an outdated, Cold War view of geopolitics. It’s said that nuclear weapons are the reason the Cold War never escalated to an all out conflict - and maybe so. But the fact is we no longer live in the cold war era and the dizzying pace of globalisation has resulted in an economic interdependence between countries that make the chances of a full scale world war seem very remote indeed.

Another argument in favour of Trident is that without it, Britain would lose its standing in the world. Well, if our ‘standing in the world’ is based solely upon our ability to indiscriminately kill hundreds of thousands of people in one fell swoop then perhaps we don’t deserve such a standing. Such blind patriotism is frankly sickening. Britain’s standing in the world is not a result of its possession of nuclear weapons, it is a result of our long history of democracy, our commitment to human rights and a language and culture that has spread right around the globe.

The threats and problems we face today cannot be solved by nuclear weapons. We cannot fight terrorist cells or Somali pirates with weapons designed to take out entire cities. What’s more, polls have consistently shown that the British public do not support the replacement of Trident. What better time could there be to scrap such an unpopular and expensive public spending program and lead the way in the noble cause of global nuclear disarmament?

To return to the question posed at the beginning of this post, try to foresee a situation in which we would actually use our nuclear weapons. The nuclear weapons used today are many times more powerful than those dropped on Japan in 1945. Millions of innocent people would die, and for the sake of what? Retaliation? An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth - a city for a city?

In the 21st century, one hopes that even the most eccentric world leaders have grown out of that mentality. I never want to see a situation in which the death of millions would be forever on the collective conscience of the British people - the only way we can ensure that such a situation never arises is by getting rid of Trident, now.

Posted on May 11, 2009 at 05:32pm

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Minimalist government is not anarchy.
Max Sceptic @ 38 weeks and 6 days ago
You're right, you cannot disinvent these things. The problem with your comment is you are comparing apples and oranges. The difference is their usage. For a start you can't destroy an entire country with a land mine. Also, because country x has land mines doesn't mean country y won't attack with land mines. There is no deterrent. I agree whole heartedly that responsible countries shouldn't use these weapons but that's just it, not all states are responsible.

I can take your point that there is a definite double standard in this. Why should one country have them and others not? But what we are talking about is the worst possible scenario. In the end, if it were to ever come to using these weapons I want them. When you are defending the country you don't want a level playing field.

You make an interesting point about equiping our allies with these weapons. Remember that Israel has been covertly armed for years. It may not sit well but Saudi Arabia could conceivably undergo a civil revolution in a way that Israel never could. Again, I'm not saying it will happen or is likely, but because of the consequences these things have to be considered. If we were to arm them this would mean defending them in any circumstances. It is an interesting point though, who knows you else has been armed.

In the end, when it comes to defending the country I want every possible defence, if this isn't responsible then I'll take that. Its not a happy situation, Oppenheimer knew this, he was appalled at the destruction caused by his invention, but as I said before nobody wants to need a nuclear deterrent, but here we are.
Thomas Snoxell @ 39 weeks ago
It is correct that you can't uninvent things, but does that mean the UK should have a full stock of:
Biological Weapons
Chemical Weapons
Anti-personnel Land Mines
Gas Chambers even
all could give some conceivable enemy cause for concern, perhaps in situations where nuclear weapons can't.

Should Britain and other 'responsible' countries be fully stocked with such weapons, or perhaps, is it a better way forward for them to be banned by internationally respected treaties - the Chemical Weapons Convention etc. Not uninvented, but neither to be held, not constructed, not sent on patrol 24 hours a day, 365 days a year - as the UK currently does with Trident.

If you can't uninvent them, and take Thomas' view, that "the whole idea of nuclear deterent [sic] is that you don't use it" then it logically follows that all states should be nuclear armed as this will deter each of them from attacking any other. If it's only Britain's possession of nukes that would stop the Taliban nuking us, then we should ensure Saudi Arabia etc. are also so equipped, as logically, deterrence will hold and all wars prevented.
Chris Larus @ 39 weeks ago
'Imagine... Tomorrow china tell us that if we don't destroy our nukes immediately they will nuke us.' - Yes, I suppose I will have to use my imagination here - seeing how such a situation is never going to happen. If we do not replace trident and we do not have any nukes to destroy, this wild situation of your unwinds already.
Morys Ireland @ 39 weeks ago
Well said Thomas. We can't uninvent the things; we need policy that makes their use least likely. Would we really be happy for Europe to be the only major power block without any?

Before they try to clamber onto the moral high-ground, the unilateralists should ask themselves how many millions of people have perished in the last fifty years as the result of nuclear weapons and compare this with how many millions have died as the result of "conventional" ones.

As someone said - try banning the bayonet first...
Brian Hughes @ 39 weeks ago
Wow, you have to ask that? What has the left come to?
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 39 weeks ago
I think they would if they knew their entire existance would be destroyed. They may say they would die for their cause, but I think the high command may think again when faced with that reality. Imagine the civil revolt in the country when faced with that possibility.

On a wider note, its not a case of that specific eventuality. That situation may never (god forbid) occur, my point is more that you cannot predict the future and to knowingly put this country behind the technological curve would be a tragedy and an error. Nukes will always exist and I for one would rather have them than not.
Thomas Snoxell @ 39 weeks ago
"the whole point of nuclear weapons is mutually assured destruction" - so your vision of the world Mike is one where we all live in harmony, thanks to the fact that if we ever argued - we'd wipe each other off the face of the planet. I don't think impending mutual destruction is a sound basis for geopolitical stability.
Morys Ireland @ 39 weeks ago
So our lives are worth more than those of the innocent people in this mysterious 'enemy' country you speak of...?
Morys Ireland @ 39 weeks ago
"Imagine a nuclear attack on the US by a Pakistan backed Al Qaeda. In these circumstances an independent nuclear deterent is essential." - Why? Do you honestly think that Al Qaeda would care whether or not we had nukes? They're not worried about their own safety or any retaliatory action taken against them, these are the guys who strap bombs to themselves remember?
Morys Ireland @ 39 weeks ago
I don't have nearly as big a problem with nuclear power as I do with nuclear weapons. It's WMDs that I see as being the greater threat to humanity.
Morys Ireland @ 39 weeks ago
I don't think there's anything that gets me more annoyed than the assertion that having a nuclear deterent means you are going to use it. The whole idea of nuclear deterent is that you don't use it. The assertion that its a case of "city for a city" is naive.

The problem is that you can't disinvent something, once its here you have to live with it. Because there is not a conceivable situation currently where a deterent is necessary doesn't mean there won't be in the future. Imagine a Pakistan that falls into the Taliban's hands. Imagine a nuclear attack on the US by a Pakistan backed Al Qaeda. In these circumstances an independent nuclear deterent is essential.

No one wants to have a nuclear deterent but to remove it would a dereliction of duty. You might say that we could get rid of it and only renew it if the circumstances required. Imagine the scene, "Britain renews nuclear deterent amid fears of attack". This would increase tension, not reduce it. We need to keep it and pray we never have to use it.
Thomas Snoxell @ 39 weeks ago
Imagine...

Tomorrow china tell us that if we don't destroy our nukes immediately they will nuke us.

Your response would be to comply because "if we aren't a threat they won't attack us". (A threat to what I wonder? What would they want to do that we might threaten nuclear war??)

Chinas record on Tibet and Taiwan (and even Tiananmen square) isn't good, but you would put the UK at the mercy of Chinas good will, and give them a green light to do whatever it was that we might have threatened to nuke them for?

Worse - what if it wasn't China (who at least seem rational, even if misguided) - but a rogue state?

tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 39 weeks ago
Jeez..... While I still prefer Trident over any (current for Britain) SST solution, I must agree with the rest of your post.

(It does feel strange....)
Max Sceptic @ 39 weeks ago
As I suspected, a Tory anarchist. The 'revelling in megadeath' wasn't some gratuitous swipe, but referring to a strain of anarchist thinking from Bakunin onwards, who wrote about "creative destruction" and how there needed to be wars, catastrophes and disasters for 'new worlds to be born'.

And don't worry, I won't get you started on the climate.
Peter Jukes @ 39 weeks ago
That's a fair point but the psychology is the same at the top and bottom. Where you get some out of control superpower or failed states you start getting a situation that looks remarkably like a ghetto. That's why things like the US defence shield and Al-Queda nonsense need trimming. If most nations are fairly prosperous and get along that puts good order and relations in a dominant position on the centre ground. This pushes the possesion and use of extreme weapons to the edges like most people in good neighbourhoods might have knifes for fishing but never carry one routinely. It's the same thing.
Charles Hardwidge @ 39 weeks ago
"If you don't wan't hundreds of thousands of deaths on your conscience support trident. "

I'm afraid that just doesn't add up. Far from removing the possibility of nuclear weapons being used against us, Trident actually increases that risk - any potential adversary would see us as a threat of great magnitude, therefore targeting their own weapons against us. The risk of utterly pointless retaliatory strikes would be greatly magnified.
Morys Ireland @ 39 weeks ago
One of my favourite movies is By Dawn's Early Light. The movie has a great premise and the all star cast performs very well. The movie is punchy and has some very memorable scenes, from the suicide of a crew member ejecting from a B-52 without a parachute, to Harpoon (Naval Command) questioning the Secretary of State's decision to engage, to Alice (Airforce Command) on the Looking Glass airborne command centre flying through a radioactive dust cloud to ram Airforce One. It's not just a movie about mad men given too much power and an out of control system like Kubrick's Doctor Strangelove. It's about people and the individual sacrifices they make to make the world a better place for each other.
Charles Hardwidge @ 39 weeks ago
I'm generally in favour of a multi-role SST replacement for Trident. It would boost the civil aviation industry, ecnourage trade and good foreign relations, and cool the arms race.

While it's prudent to green light the initial stage of Trident procurement so a replacement programme doesn't stall I'm ticked off that no other solutions have been put on the table and discussed though I have heard *one* squeak of support for an SST replacement and general support for an airborne solution over submarines.

The other thing I'm concerned about is QinetiQ and the independency of the warheads. Apart from a dumb name the technology sharing and business partnerships with the US give me the jitters as much as the supplementary role to US military command. Also, the person who greenlit the indpendent warheads being anything but independent needs dragging outside and shooting.

Mostly, I'm not too bugged about nuclear weapons. They're not going away and people have enough stress at the moment without some ideologue trying to restart that hobby horse. Most developed states have protocols that keep idiots away from the button and slow their firing down while wiser heads negotiate a settlement. The focus has to remain on developing jobs, infrstructure, and good trading relations on the basis that happy people don't start fights.
Charles Hardwidge @ 39 weeks ago
Deterring foreign nuclear/WMD powers only requires that they believe we can and will retaliate.

On most readings, Saddam was attacked on the *belief* that he controlled WMDs - what a poker player he must have been. Weren't there tactical nukes available to discourage any first use of WMDs?

If you don't like trident - I'd be happy to see your comparisons with alternative nuclear delivery mechanisms - I have clearly stated what I expect of a nuclear deterrent, feel free to sell me an alternative (not that I have any influence).

By the way, have we been told how much of our 'contingency' funds have been squandered on labours wars?
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 39 weeks ago
Peter,

Naughty: stop twisting my words...

I had - as you will know - explained my 'anarchism' as being in favour of minimalist government. The armed forces - including a modern and updated nuclear deterrent - are one of the few areas of public spending that I support.

And Peter, it's below you to claim that I "revel in megadeath". I'll leave the reveling in such scenarios to the juvenile fans of computer games.

[And please don't get me started on the futility of 'combating' global warming -- oops - I meant 'climate change'].
Max Sceptic @ 39 weeks ago
Trident doesn't need to be renewed in this way for us to retain a nuclear deterrent. And given the way we've squandered our military power in the last few years (for me Iraq - but not Afghanistan) I have absolutely no confidence that the balance of 'death risk' mounts up in favour of multiple warheads, controlled by the US.
Peter Jukes @ 39 weeks ago
Well, another surprisingly reasonable answer, and an honest admission we have no 'existential' nuclear enemies.

Unlike the Soviet Union during the commissioning of Trident, none of the potential enemies (e.g. Pakistan) has a delivery mechanism to reach the UK. Of those that potentially hate us more, North Korea also can't reach the UK with its current missiles, and Iran is five to ten years away (using the failed Iraqi estimates) from actually having a fissionable device.

So you're basically saying we should keep up the current levels of deterrence, designed for a clear and present danger of an all out Soviet attack on Europe, for these speculative future problems?

I'm surprised Max. The other day you were declaring yourself as an anarchist, and now you're fixated to the last glowing phallic symbol of state power. But these delivery mechanisms have been (mercifully) completely impotent for 60 years.

If you're really worried about future threats the money would surely be better spent on some alternative to fossil fuels or some carbon cleaning equivalent thereof.

But it takes an anarchist to revel in megadeath.
Peter Jukes @ 39 weeks ago
Britain does not - at this time - have one. Yet.

But when the failed state of Pakistan finally crumbles and the nice gentlemen of the taliban get their hands on ex-Pakistan's nukes; or when Iran goes nuclear and somebody there decides that Hezbollah could do with a nice suitcase device to further their Jihad; or when self-made famine once again threatens the People's Democratic Republic of [North] Korea and the Great Leader seeks a diversion - then, it would be sensible for us to hold a serious deterrent.

... or would you rather rely on Uncle Sam to save the day?

One thing is certain: For the foreseeable future America, Russia, China, France, India and Israel aren't going to surrender their nuclear deterrents.
Max Sceptic @ 39 weeks ago
Max. Stick to the comedy. Much better than your serious posts. Name me one 'existential' enemy which needs a nuclear deterrent? One.
Peter Jukes @ 39 weeks ago
Question: "Before you read the rest of this post, consider this: Are there any circumstances whatsoever in which you would be prepared to have the deaths of hundreds of thousands people on your conscience?

Answer: Yes - absolutely.

And so long as our existential enemies (and we do have existential enemies) are certain that - if push came to shove - they would face total annihilation, Britain and the West will survive.
Max Sceptic @ 39 weeks ago
Totally agree with this Morys - but who will listen. Tony Blair's compliance with the Iraqi invasion was the first real indication that public opinion only matters to our government when very close to an election. Democracy means little in the UK now.
George Woodhouse @ 39 weeks and 1 day ago
£76bn over 30 years to protect an economy worth £1500bn a year seems like a fair insurance policy to me.

And yes, the whole point of nuclear weapons is mutually assured destruction - that's why we have them and that's why no one has used them since WW2.

Good luck with your unilateralism - it went down well in the early 1980s.
Mike Thomas @ 39 weeks and 1 day ago
As long as we have nuclear weapons it is close to unthinkable that any one would use nuclear weapons against us. So they would never actually have to be used.

If we didn't have nuclear weapons it is quite possible that a nuclear state could threaten us - our choice would be surrender or die.

If you don't wan't hundreds of thousands of deaths on your conscience support trident.
tory 'killed for telling the uncomfortable truth' troll @ 39 weeks and 1 day ago
Completely agree. I find myself a member of a Labour party that supports Trident and nuclear power. Two of the most crucial issues to me. Whilst the Lib Dems appear to oppose both. I used to think I could change Labour policy. Since new Labour I do not think this.
Philip Homer @ 39 weeks and 1 day ago
Can't see anything to disagrre with there and I shall even resist the temptation to mention Iraq in answer to the question "Are there any circumstances whatsoever in which you would be prepared to have the deaths of hundreds of thousands people on your conscience?"

It seems our Overlords aren't bothered about public opinion, money or whether killing millions is good/bad. Shame, its things like this where you can make a difference.
Charlie Farley @ 39 weeks and 1 day ago